Comments on: Double Deep Frames http://robo.bushkillfarms.com Trial and Tribulations of a Hobby Beekeeper! Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:09:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Oliver http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-3866 Oliver Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:40:04 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-3866 I made two with double deep frames. but found the problem is no way to extract them. Supers are too big and get filled with honey instead of it being pushed up into the supers. Search for Gargantua on Beesource. I made a SC and a LC, but one or the other keeps dying. Also see giant swarm moving into one, search jollyollie8 in YouTube. I made two with double deep frames. but found the problem is no way to extract them. Supers are too big and get filled with honey instead of it being pushed up into the supers. Search for Gargantua on Beesource. I made a SC and a LC, but one or the other keeps dying. Also see giant swarm moving into one, search jollyollie8 in YouTube.

]]> By: woollybee http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-2546 woollybee Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:36:41 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-2546 Alan, I am struggling with the same exact questions these days. I know it's a little late in the year to start, but I'll see how far I get. You say that you space your frames 1 1/4 inches. So, I assume you are building your frames from scratch, right? Because I was thinking that maybe I could use at least the top and side of my old Langstroth frames and adapt them. But the center to center spacing of these frames is more like 1 1/2 inches. I am also playing around with the idea of using only the top bars of the Lang frames with starter strips and, using half supers, create a Warre-type hive, where you add boxes at the bottom. What I like about that is the fact that brood comb gets created constantly new and you don't have to worry about replacing it ever. I also like the idea of minimal intrusion into the hive. But it would be nice to re-use the materials I already have instead of making or buying new. Alan,
I am struggling with the same exact questions these days. I know it’s a little late in the year to start, but I’ll see how far I get. You say that you space your frames 1 1/4 inches. So, I assume you are building your frames from scratch, right? Because I was thinking that maybe I could use at least the top and side of my old Langstroth frames and adapt them. But the center to center spacing of these frames is more like 1 1/2 inches.
I am also playing around with the idea of using only the top bars of the Lang frames with starter strips and, using half supers, create a Warre-type hive, where you add boxes at the bottom. What I like about that is the fact that brood comb gets created constantly new and you don’t have to worry about replacing it ever. I also like the idea of minimal intrusion into the hive. But it would be nice to re-use the materials I already have instead of making or buying new.

]]> By: Robo http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-2419 Robo Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:11:13 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-2419 1. You are correct, the U of the Hoffman frame is definitely a stronger design and yes I was a little concerned with my design. I did glue and staple them and in my limited experience had no issues. I must add that I never had a complete frame full of honey and I never pried up on the top bar. I always broken them loose by sliding them sideways before pulling them out. The staple spacers made sliding sideways rather easy as there was very minimal gluing of the frames. If you do go with the Hoffman style, just make it a habit to scrape it clean each time, even if it is only an inch. 2. I never had all 11 frames fully drawn, but if you did, and had the hive packed wall to wall with bees than rolling could be an issue. Using a follower board would help. 3. There is nothing magic about the 2 deeps, I just chose it because all my polystyrene hive bodies are deeps and that 2 deeps is the normal brood area for my area. I don't see a problem with any of the other combinations you described. 4. I had no problems with any sagging. I believe the metal cross rod helped with this. Without the rod, I could invision comb failure of new comb if it was packed with honey, and perhaps even frame failure. Good luck and keep us posted. 1. You are correct, the U of the Hoffman frame is definitely a stronger design and yes I was a little concerned with my design. I did glue and staple them and in my limited experience had no issues. I must add that I never had a complete frame full of honey and I never pried up on the top bar. I always broken them loose by sliding them sideways before pulling them out. The staple spacers made sliding sideways rather easy as there was very minimal gluing of the frames. If you do go with the Hoffman style, just make it a habit to scrape it clean each time, even if it is only an inch.

2. I never had all 11 frames fully drawn, but if you did, and had the hive packed wall to wall with bees than rolling could be an issue. Using a follower board would help.

3. There is nothing magic about the 2 deeps, I just chose it because all my polystyrene hive bodies are deeps and that 2 deeps is the normal brood area for my area. I don’t see a problem with any of the other combinations you described.

4. I had no problems with any sagging. I believe the metal cross rod helped with this. Without the rod, I could invision comb failure of new comb if it was packed with honey, and perhaps even frame failure.

Good luck and keep us posted.

]]> By: Alan Kramer http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-2392 Alan Kramer Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:18:33 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-2392 Sorry to hear you lost the hive and wish you luck reviving tis interesting experiment this spring. I am thinking about trying something similar and had a few questions on your experience: 1/ I understand about the Hoffman frame design being worse for propolis and so your decision to move to staples (or pushpins :-) for spacing, but the other benefit of the hoffman design is the 'U' shaped top structure which overlaps the top bar on both sides and allows added strength at the connection between top bar and side bars with both more glue as well as horizontal nails or staples. I was thinking about staying with a hoffman style design because I am worried about the added weight of the deep frames which primarily presses on the bottom bar and, from the bottom bar connection to the side bars, on the side bars. Did you have any concern with the weight of the frames you developed and the stress on this sidebar-to-topbar connection? From you comments on propolis, I am thinking to reduce the vertical length of the 'U' shape at the top of the sidebar to the minimum for strength (maybe an inch or so) and to use your staple or pushpin idea halfway down the frame to assure the frame sits vertically. Would you think this is a good idea or not worth the trouble? (the straight sidebars are obviously easier to make than the hoffman style...). 2/ with the 1 1/4" spacing (which I use too), would be concerned about pulling this deep frame out without rolling some bees. With a follower board and sticking to only 10 frames instead of 11, this concern could easily be addressed - do yo think it's worth worrying about or was i as easy lifting out the 11th double deep frame as an 11th standard frame? 3/ aside from being able to use a stack of two standard supers, it seems like one could make any size frame with this idea, and since the frame is non-standard and will not be extracted, etc..., compatibility with standard super sizes seems to be the only reason to choose one size or another (with an obvious upper limit due to weight and strength, which your double deep fames would seem to be close to. I use all mediums and am thinking about adopting a similar design for a triple medium frame (18 3/4" height), a double medium frame (12 1/2" height) or a deep+medium frame (15 3/8 height). Are there any other considerations that make you believe there are advantages to the double deep height? 4/ Since this is all custom stuff, the top bar could be made thicker (and stronger) that the standard dadant 3/4" top bar. Did you see any evidence of top-bar sagging and would you think there is any reason to be concerned with reinforcing the top bar of these double deep frames? What about if they are full of honey instead of brood? Same questions for the bottom bar. thanks for your advice, and please keep us posted as your experiment evolves... Alan Kramer Sorry to hear you lost the hive and wish you luck reviving tis interesting experiment this spring. I am thinking about trying something similar and had a few questions on your experience:

1/ I understand about the Hoffman frame design being worse for propolis and so your decision to move to staples (or pushpins :-) for spacing, but the other benefit of the hoffman design is the ‘U’ shaped top structure which overlaps the top bar on both sides and allows added strength at the connection between top bar and side bars with both more glue as well as horizontal nails or staples. I was thinking about staying with a hoffman style design because I am worried about the added weight of the deep frames which primarily presses on the bottom bar and, from the bottom bar connection to the side bars, on the side bars. Did you have any concern with the weight of the frames you developed and the stress on this sidebar-to-topbar connection? From you comments on propolis, I am thinking to reduce the vertical length of the ‘U’ shape at the top of the sidebar to the minimum for strength (maybe an inch or so) and to use your staple or pushpin idea halfway down the frame to assure the frame sits vertically. Would you think this is a good idea or not worth the trouble? (the straight sidebars are obviously easier to make than the hoffman style…).

2/ with the 1 1/4″ spacing (which I use too), would be concerned about pulling this deep frame out without rolling some bees. With a follower board and sticking to only 10 frames instead of 11, this concern could easily be addressed – do yo think it’s worth worrying about or was i as easy lifting out the 11th double deep frame as an 11th standard frame?

3/ aside from being able to use a stack of two standard supers, it seems like one could make any size frame with this idea, and since the frame is non-standard and will not be extracted, etc…, compatibility with standard super sizes seems to be the only reason to choose one size or another (with an obvious upper limit due to weight and strength, which your double deep fames would seem to be close to. I use all mediums and am thinking about adopting a similar design for a triple medium frame (18 3/4″ height), a double medium frame (12 1/2″ height) or a deep+medium frame (15 3/8 height). Are there any other considerations that make you believe there are advantages to the double deep height?

4/ Since this is all custom stuff, the top bar could be made thicker (and stronger) that the standard dadant 3/4″ top bar. Did you see any evidence of top-bar sagging and would you think there is any reason to be concerned with reinforcing the top bar of these double deep frames? What about if they are full of honey instead of brood? Same questions for the bottom bar.

thanks for your advice, and please keep us posted as your experiment evolves…

Alan Kramer

]]> By: Robo http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-2003 Robo Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:55:28 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-2003 Cam, This hive suffered with a laying worker late in the Fall and didn't make it through the winter. I still have it, but have not had a chance to introduce another swarm yet. rob... Cam,

This hive suffered with a laying worker late in the Fall and didn’t make it through the winter. I still have it, but have not had a chance to introduce another swarm yet.

rob…

]]> By: Cam Bishop http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1990 Cam Bishop Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:41:12 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-1990 Robo, Are you still using these frames? How are they working out? After reading a lot of Walt Wright's stuff, seems like these would make the winter cluster more efficient and also help with swarming issues? Notice anything in those areas? Robo,

Are you still using these frames? How are they working out? After reading a lot of Walt Wright’s stuff, seems like these would make the winter cluster more efficient and also help with swarming issues? Notice anything in those areas?

]]> By: Robo http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1849 Robo Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:58:06 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-1849 Great advice, Thanks for sharing.... Great advice, Thanks for sharing….

]]> By: Charles http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1848 Charles Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:22:12 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-1848 Incidentally, if your side-bars are one-inch wide, a typical plastic push-pin is approx 3/8 long "head" and make for great spacers. No need to tap-tap until the depth is just right. :) <img width="150" class="noshadow" src="http://www.pachd.com/free-images/household-images/push-pin-01.jpg"> Incidentally, if your side-bars are one-inch wide, a typical plastic push-pin is approx 3/8 long “head” and make for great spacers. No need to tap-tap until the depth is just right. :)

]]> By: Robo http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1270 Robo Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:52:28 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-1270 <b>Can you tell me if there has been any determination on the single staple idea of propolis reduction? </b><br /> Propolis traits can vary drastically from hive to hive, so one hive is not a good sample for a conclusive answer. For what it is worth, it is working quite nicely in this hive.<br /> <b>Doesn’t using only a starter strip make the bees work a lot harder to build/draw out comb?</b> <br /> That is an often debated issue. One would believe it is more work since they don't have a foundation to start with, but others will argue that bees prefer to build natural comb and work more efficiently by building down instead of out.<br /> <b> Do you reduce the number of frames to nine once they are drawn?</b><br /> Actually, the frames are made slightly smaller than standard frames so that 11 fit. This provides a spacing that is closer to what feral colonies use for brood comb.<br /> <b> Can you tell me a good source for small cell foundation?</b><br /> <a href="http://www.betterbee.com" rel="nofollow">BetterBee</a> sells 4.9 foundation as do some other dealers. The problem with commercial foundation is that all the wax is contaminated with the harsh chemicals from the commercial miticides. Can you tell me if there has been any determination on the single staple idea of propolis reduction?
Propolis traits can vary drastically from hive to hive, so one hive is not a good sample for a conclusive answer. For what it is worth, it is working quite nicely in this hive.
Doesn’t using only a starter strip make the bees work a lot harder to build/draw out comb?
That is an often debated issue. One would believe it is more work since they don’t have a foundation to start with, but others will argue that bees prefer to build natural comb and work more efficiently by building down instead of out.
Do you reduce the number of frames to nine once they are drawn?
Actually, the frames are made slightly smaller than standard frames so that 11 fit. This provides a spacing that is closer to what feral colonies use for brood comb.
Can you tell me a good source for small cell foundation?
BetterBee sells 4.9 foundation as do some other dealers. The problem with commercial foundation is that all the wax is contaminated with the harsh chemicals from the commercial miticides.

]]> By: Howard Christian http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/comment-page-1/#comment-1269 Howard Christian Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:22:02 +0000 http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/?page_id=31#comment-1269 Can you tell me if there has been any determination on the single staple idea of propolis reduction? This is a great concept BTW and I will try it. Doesn't using only a starter strip make the bees work a lot harder to build/draw out comb? Do you reduce the number of frames to nine once they are drawn? Can you tell me a good source for small cell foundation? I ffel this is going to be a very strong deterent to Varroa. Can you tell me if there has been any determination on the single staple idea of propolis reduction? This is a great concept BTW and I will try it. Doesn’t using only a starter strip make the bees work a lot harder to build/draw out comb? Do you reduce the number of frames to nine once they are drawn? Can you tell me a good source for small cell foundation? I ffel this is going to be a very strong deterent to Varroa.

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