Double Deep Frames
Jul 29th, 2007 by Robo
The big craze over at Beemaster is switching to only medium depth boxes. Yes there are some advantages like uniformity and lighter weight, but there are also some things I consider disadvantages, at least to me. One is more equipment and therefore more cost. One can also debate if there is any downside to breaking up the brood area more. But perhaps the biggest downside to me is the added work (and time) in doing a full inspection.
Being the non-conformist that I am, I took the thing that bothered me the most and went the opposite direction. Even with deep supers, to do a full inspection of a 2-story deep colony, I need to go over 20 frames and remove one box to get to the other. So I decided to give double depth deep frames a try. Although each frame is heavier, they are still lighter than lifting even a medium box and there is no need to remove any boxes to get further down in the brood nest. Granted, if you need to move your hive around, this is not a solution for you. I’m doing this on a hive at my home which I don’t move.
I know large deep frames are not new as Dadant used them. In fact, I used the Dadant frame as the inspiration for my design. I also must give credit to Michael Bush for the photo of the Dadant frame on his website.
Two concerns that I had with the double deep frames where comb support and comb flatness. 
The comb support was address by putting a steel rod across the middle of the frame. Remember those free corrugated plastic election signs I use as starter strips? Now I have a use for the wire stands from these signs too 
The rods not only support the comb, but would keep the frame rails from bowing. This is the same method used by Dadant. As for the comb flatness, I had experienced from my top bar hives that the bees will build a natural arc in the comb as they go. In fact, on the TBHs they will end up on the adjacent top bar if the hive is wide enough. So I decided to give comb guides a try. The Dadant frame appears to have triangular shaped guides around the inside of the frames. I had a pile of unused wedges from wedge top frames that I cut to fit and glued in. 
I sized the frames to fit in two stacked deeps as I didn’t want to make new boxes for this experiment. I started building Hoffman style end bars, but ended up switching to flat end bars and staples for spacing. I find the Hoffman style get packed with propolis over time and need scrapping. I find it somewhat challenging to hold a regular deep in one hand and scrap the propolis off with the other, I can’t imagine trying to do that with these. I’m interested in seeing how the staple spacers work and if there is significant less propolis to deal with, I might even switch to them on all my new frames.
I decided to introduce one of these frames into a hive to start. This way there would be frames of comb on either side to help guide the bees in the comb building. At first inspection I was a little worried as they not only where building comb from the top guide, but also from the metal rod. But it turned out not to be an issue, as the comb guides along the side of the frames worked like a champ and everything lined up when they met. I had put this in a hive that was honey super cell frames since it would have uniform comb on both sides. They did draw out mostly drone comb, but this was expected since they had none with the honey super cell. Next year I will continue adding more of these frames and hopefully get the hive migrated over completely.
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How do you mean? Using staple spaceing of frames?
Duane,
Hoffman style end bars are wider at the top and narrower at the bottom. The wider top part is what controls the frame spacing. It is also a larger surface area for the bee to glue together with propolis.
Where as using staples to control spacing greatly reduces the area that the bees can propolize.
If you don’t keep the propolis cleaned off the Hoffman style end bars, it builds up and starts spreading the frames farther apart.
I belive it’s been about a year since you used these double deep frames. How are they working out for you? Was the comb flat and supported well? I would like to try this, but I want to see how it worked out for you first. Thanks.
Kris,
I only introduced one frame last year as the bees where from a cut out and it took them a while to gain their strength back form loosing all their resources. I also didn’t want to leave any gaps of open space for the Winter if they did not complete drawing a frame.
It has been a very cool Spring here, and I didn’t get to add any more frames until a week ago. I added 2 more empty frames, one on each side of the drawn out frame. If the weather ever warms up, hopefully I’ll have some updates and pictures within a month or so.
rob…
I have been making hivebodies that are about 1 1/2 deep for a few years now and they have been producing perfectly straight comb.
I use the top bars of a standard frame and make new side pieces for the additional length. A strip of all wax foundation is inserted into the top bar as usual abut only about 2 inches wide. A wooden dowel is inserted between the top and bottom bars for support. The only problem was keeping the wax strip in place without falling out. Once the bees start building comb on this strip (i use small cell foundation), it comes out nice and straight , and is very strong.
Mickey,
Sounds similar to what I have seen of Chris Harp’s method. Good to hear it has been working well for you too. I chose to model mine after the original Dadant deep with a horizontal wire and wooden comb guides on all the edges. Curved comb has not been an issue. I still struggle at times with them over drawing the comb into adjacent frame space when storing honey at the top of the frames.
I find strips of coroplast (corrugated plastic cardboard) work great as starter strips. They fit perfectly in grooved top bars and one staple from an air nailer holds them securely.
rob….
Can you tell me if there has been any determination on the single staple idea of propolis reduction? This is a great concept BTW and I will try it. Doesn’t using only a starter strip make the bees work a lot harder to build/draw out comb? Do you reduce the number of frames to nine once they are drawn? Can you tell me a good source for small cell foundation? I ffel this is going to be a very strong deterent to Varroa.
Can you tell me if there has been any determination on the single staple idea of propolis reduction?
Propolis traits can vary drastically from hive to hive, so one hive is not a good sample for a conclusive answer. For what it is worth, it is working quite nicely in this hive.
Doesn’t using only a starter strip make the bees work a lot harder to build/draw out comb?
That is an often debated issue. One would believe it is more work since they don’t have a foundation to start with, but others will argue that bees prefer to build natural comb and work more efficiently by building down instead of out.
Do you reduce the number of frames to nine once they are drawn?
Actually, the frames are made slightly smaller than standard frames so that 11 fit. This provides a spacing that is closer to what feral colonies use for brood comb.
Can you tell me a good source for small cell foundation?
BetterBee sells 4.9 foundation as do some other dealers. The problem with commercial foundation is that all the wax is contaminated with the harsh chemicals from the commercial miticides.
Incidentally, if your side-bars are one-inch wide, a typical plastic push-pin is approx 3/8 long “head” and make for great spacers. No need to tap-tap until the depth is just right.
Great advice, Thanks for sharing….
Robo,
Are you still using these frames? How are they working out? After reading a lot of Walt Wright’s stuff, seems like these would make the winter cluster more efficient and also help with swarming issues? Notice anything in those areas?
Cam,
This hive suffered with a laying worker late in the Fall and didn’t make it through the winter. I still have it, but have not had a chance to introduce another swarm yet.
rob…
Sorry to hear you lost the hive and wish you luck reviving tis interesting experiment this spring. I am thinking about trying something similar and had a few questions on your experience:
1/ I understand about the Hoffman frame design being worse for propolis and so your decision to move to staples (or pushpins
for spacing, but the other benefit of the hoffman design is the ‘U’ shaped top structure which overlaps the top bar on both sides and allows added strength at the connection between top bar and side bars with both more glue as well as horizontal nails or staples. I was thinking about staying with a hoffman style design because I am worried about the added weight of the deep frames which primarily presses on the bottom bar and, from the bottom bar connection to the side bars, on the side bars. Did you have any concern with the weight of the frames you developed and the stress on this sidebar-to-topbar connection? From you comments on propolis, I am thinking to reduce the vertical length of the ‘U’ shape at the top of the sidebar to the minimum for strength (maybe an inch or so) and to use your staple or pushpin idea halfway down the frame to assure the frame sits vertically. Would you think this is a good idea or not worth the trouble? (the straight sidebars are obviously easier to make than the hoffman style…).
2/ with the 1 1/4″ spacing (which I use too), would be concerned about pulling this deep frame out without rolling some bees. With a follower board and sticking to only 10 frames instead of 11, this concern could easily be addressed – do yo think it’s worth worrying about or was i as easy lifting out the 11th double deep frame as an 11th standard frame?
3/ aside from being able to use a stack of two standard supers, it seems like one could make any size frame with this idea, and since the frame is non-standard and will not be extracted, etc…, compatibility with standard super sizes seems to be the only reason to choose one size or another (with an obvious upper limit due to weight and strength, which your double deep fames would seem to be close to. I use all mediums and am thinking about adopting a similar design for a triple medium frame (18 3/4″ height), a double medium frame (12 1/2″ height) or a deep+medium frame (15 3/8 height). Are there any other considerations that make you believe there are advantages to the double deep height?
4/ Since this is all custom stuff, the top bar could be made thicker (and stronger) that the standard dadant 3/4″ top bar. Did you see any evidence of top-bar sagging and would you think there is any reason to be concerned with reinforcing the top bar of these double deep frames? What about if they are full of honey instead of brood? Same questions for the bottom bar.
thanks for your advice, and please keep us posted as your experiment evolves…
Alan Kramer
1. You are correct, the U of the Hoffman frame is definitely a stronger design and yes I was a little concerned with my design. I did glue and staple them and in my limited experience had no issues. I must add that I never had a complete frame full of honey and I never pried up on the top bar. I always broken them loose by sliding them sideways before pulling them out. The staple spacers made sliding sideways rather easy as there was very minimal gluing of the frames. If you do go with the Hoffman style, just make it a habit to scrape it clean each time, even if it is only an inch.
2. I never had all 11 frames fully drawn, but if you did, and had the hive packed wall to wall with bees than rolling could be an issue. Using a follower board would help.
3. There is nothing magic about the 2 deeps, I just chose it because all my polystyrene hive bodies are deeps and that 2 deeps is the normal brood area for my area. I don’t see a problem with any of the other combinations you described.
4. I had no problems with any sagging. I believe the metal cross rod helped with this. Without the rod, I could invision comb failure of new comb if it was packed with honey, and perhaps even frame failure.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Alan,
I am struggling with the same exact questions these days. I know it’s a little late in the year to start, but I’ll see how far I get. You say that you space your frames 1 1/4 inches. So, I assume you are building your frames from scratch, right? Because I was thinking that maybe I could use at least the top and side of my old Langstroth frames and adapt them. But the center to center spacing of these frames is more like 1 1/2 inches.
I am also playing around with the idea of using only the top bars of the Lang frames with starter strips and, using half supers, create a Warre-type hive, where you add boxes at the bottom. What I like about that is the fact that brood comb gets created constantly new and you don’t have to worry about replacing it ever. I also like the idea of minimal intrusion into the hive. But it would be nice to re-use the materials I already have instead of making or buying new.
I made two with double deep frames. but found the problem is no way to extract them. Supers are too big and get filled with honey instead of it being pushed up into the supers. Search for Gargantua on Beesource. I made a SC and a LC, but one or the other keeps dying. Also see giant swarm moving into one, search jollyollie8 in YouTube.